A debate on whether God deals with the Jews as a nation today

Here's a debate i've got myself into, if anyone is interested:

http://proto-protestantism.blogspot.com/2011/04/islam-today-part-2-assimilation.html



23 comments:




ianvincent said...

John, What do you think about the Jews returning to the land of Israel since 1948, do you see it as the fulfilling of prophecy?
April 14, 2011 6:53 PM

Protoprotestant said...

No, I'm not a Dispensationalist. I grew up in that system, but I believe Ephesians 2, Galatians 3, Romans 11 and several other passages teach the only future for the Jews is to join the Church.

I think the land of Israel was a type fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The Genesis 12 passage about Abraham's seed is fulfilled in Christ and thus in the Church. In the OT, it was Israel in part, but in the NT Israel isn't the Jews.

That's why if you're a non Dispensationalist the whole geo-political spectrum looks very different. Israel of 1948 doesn't have anything to do with prophecy...in fact it could be argued their continued claim to that land is just a further rejection of Christ.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. I wrote some posts awhile back on Replacement Theology. Not the term I would choose, but that's what it is often called. You might find it helpful, even if you don't agree...at least helpful in understanding why others just as committed to Scripture are convinced the Dispensational 2 People/2 Plans structure is a mistake.

Hope that helps.




April 14, 2011 8:25 PM
ianvincent said...

I just recently came to know what the label "Dispensationalist" means, thanks to you, John.

I've come to learn it could mean a number of things.

But it would be a shame if you let the labelling get out of hand and prevent you from accepting the Scriptures at face value.

E.g. How could you read Romans 9 thru 11 and conclude there is no plan for the Jewish people?

The same with numerous OT prophecies.

(yes, it is all consumated in Christ, at the end)

April 14, 2011 8:47 PM
ianvincent said...

P.S. Oh yes, they do eventually join the church, but the issue is what are God's dealings with them as a nation to bring them to that place? Scripture has much to say about what He will do with the Jewish people to prepare them and bring them to Messiah, and you just discard all that, saying it's all irrelevant?

April 14, 2011 8:51 PM
Protoprotestant said...

not irrelevant...fulfilled.

Ephesians 2 makes it pretty clear. It's the whole message of Galatians 3 and virtually the entire book of Hebrews.

Yes there's a remnant that will join the Church, but the land, temple, priesthood, the whole Mosaic system is gone. There aren't two people of God anymore. We're all part of the Commonwealth of Israel as Paul puts it.

There's one tree not two.

We need to read the OT in light of the New, and understand OT prophecy the way the Apostles did. Acts 2 and 15 are great places to start. The Apostles treat the Joel and Amos passages in an entirely different manner than the Dispensational hermeneutic. The Scriptures are literal but the language often employs types, signs, symbols and metaphors that are not fulfilled literalistically.

For example the Tabernacle of David in Amos is about the Gentile/Jewish Church.

The cosmic events of Joel 2 were symbolic and fulfilled in the death and resurrection and enthronment of Christ.

The prophecy concerning Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist, not the literal Elijah.

The Kingdom itself is spiritual in nature, a present reality in Christ.

The problem is both the Dispensationa system as well as the Postmil system are looking for those literal fulfillments of Kingdom promises that the NT interprets quite differently.

It's not labeling. It's basically hermeneutics derived from the relationship between the OT/NT and divergent understandings of what is the Kingdom. I'm not looking for a future literal Kingdom with Christ reigning physically in Jerusalem. He's already reigning on the heavenly Mt. Zion and when he comes again it's not to establish a political kingdom, it's to Judge the World and usher in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Kingdom and Hermeneutics...huge questions.




April 14, 2011 10:37 PM
ianvincent said...

But God's plan for the Jewish nation is not yet fulfilled, that's the whole point.

So, when we see it in the process of being fulfilled, today, and then to say it is irrelevant, it's all fulfilled - it just doesn't stand up.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but it is irrelevant to the point i made, that Scripture describes HOW God will deal with the Jewish people in order to ultimately bring them to Messiah.

April 14, 2011 10:53 PM
Protoprotestant said...

Well, 2 Cor 1.20 says that all the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Christ.

It would seem to suggest that somehow the land or something to do with the Jewish people fulfills prophecy comes into conflict with what Paul is saying.

As far as the how...Hebrews tell us that the Levitical law has been disanulled, put aside, we're under the order of Melchisidec. So to return to that system...which included the land, the Jewish idenity etc... is highly problematic.

A large amount of the 1948 notion rests on the passage in Matthew 24 which has always struck me as odd considering if you literally read the passage about the fig tree you wouldn't come up with that at all.

BTW, just a quick note. We're obviously disagreeing but I just want to say please don't think my tone to be unpleasant. I don't mean it to be in the least. Sometimes when you shoot back and forth like we're doing it can seem like we're getting mad at each other. I just wanted to say, I'm enjoying the exchange.




April 14, 2011 11:28 PM
David said...

Good exchange. This is something I am truly passionate about. Hermeneutic considerations are so vitally important when it comes to considering how one interprets the scriptures, yet it is something the average man in the pew rarely wrestles with. It often seems that one simply brings to the text some prior decision on what it must mean based on something they heard somewhere or how they were raised and then force the text to fit their presuppositions (fyi, I am not accusing you of this, vincent). Recognizing our prior commitments, and allowing the content of the scriptures to override them when necessary is a difficult but necessary step in growing to maturity in the Christian faith. Ultimately, it is not what we want to be true that matters, but what is true. We must be like the Bereans and examine the scripture to determine if what we are being taught is really true.

All that being said, I heartily agree with John on this one. The dispensational system is entirely predicated upon the notion that a clear distinction/separation be made between Israel and the Church at all times. There are two peoples, and two plans: one for national, ethnic Israel, and one for the Gentiles who are saved by faith (which is considered to be an unforeseen intercalation within God's plan for Israel). The foremost dispensational scholars refer to it as the sine qua non ("without which nothing"), and consider it the proper litmus test as to whether or not one may be legitimately considered a dispensationalist. This is the basis of the system; it is the foundation upon which it is built. If it falls the whole thing falls. And simply put, it cannot hold up under the weight of scripture. When you combine Galatians 3 (those of faith are the true descendants of Abraham), the singular olive tree of Romans 12, Eph 2 (Gentiles are no longer aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, for God has made one new humanity reconciling Jews and Gentiles into one body, the church), Hebrews (the abolition of the Mosaic covenant and the mediation of a better covenant), and the way that the NT authors (especially in the gospels and Acts) understand and explain OT quotes, it sounds the death knell of the dispensationalist hermeneutic.





April 15, 2011 2:15 AM
David said...

"The Isreal of God in Prophecy" is a fantastic book on the hermeneutic issues involved in understanding OT prophecy in terms of the revelation of Christ and the NT authors' perspectives. Fair warning, it is written by a 7th Day Adventist (whose general theology I disagree with heartily). Yet somehow, this is a thoroughly biblical explication of this topic, and a solid and scholarly refutation of dispensationalism. It doesn't begin with forgone conclusions, but focuses in on the issues of interpretive method. It looks to the NT itself to discern the proper hermeneutic principles, and discovers in the NT authors a Christocentric hermeneutic that understands the unity between testaments in terms prophecy/type/shadow and fulfillment in Christ. Other than the occasional quote from Ellen G. White (which can be ignored without detriment to the text) it is a gem.





April 15, 2011 2:16 AM
ianvincent said...

Re:

"Well, 2 Cor 1.20 says that all the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Christ."
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Of course. If you had read my previous comment you would see i affirmed that.

My point is exactly that: The Jewish people have not yet believed the promises of God and have not yet received or entered the New Covenant.

Scripture says God will bring them back from all nations where He has scattered them, and only after that, at the LORD's coming, will they believe and then "all Israel will be saved".

So, John, are you are saying, then, that every prophecy concerning Israel returning to the land of Israel is a spiritual metaphor of the Church returning to the New Jerusalem?

You believe every prophetic reference to Israel in both Testaments is to be interpreted as the Church?

Like in Romans 9-11, when Paul mentions Israel and her destiny, there he really means the Church?

Isn't that called spiritualizing?

Btw, even liberal theologians are professors in hermeneutics; they are hermeneutical experts, and still they twist the Scriptures.

It's just a conceited way of saying interpretation.

April 15, 2011 7:27 AM
ianvincent said...

Just another example:

In Matthew 24 our LORD Jesus speaks long about the last days.

Now, at the end of that discourse, if you are right, He SHOULD have included this disclaimer or waiver:

"BUT, none of this applies to you, the Jewish people. Nothing i've prophesied to you applies to you, the Jewish nation. It only applies to the Gentile believers in me."
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That's what you're saying, John, if i read you right, that nothing Jesus or anyone else in the NT prophesied has any reference to natural Israel, it all refers to the Church.
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I would agree with your distaste concerning the way that some Christians (people like John Hagee) fawn over the nation of Israel to the point of believing they are saved just bcos they are Jewish.

April 15, 2011 8:28 AM
David said...

"It's just a conceited way of saying interpretation."
I don't know if I'd call it conceited so much as theological jargon. But it is not simply interpretation. Specifically, hermeneutics are one's method of interpretation. It is the presuppositions that drive the way they will interpret. Everyone interprets, but the interpretational philosophy of a liberal theologian will be different from a conservative one. A covenant theologian will approach the scriptures in a different way than a dispensationalist. Our prior commitments and presuppositions (unfortunately) shape the way we see things. Essentially, it seeks to answer questions such as do we interpret the OT in light of the NT, or vice versa. Do we interpret ambiguous passages in light of the clear ones (scripture interprets scripture) or do we begin with our interpretations of difficult books like Daniel and Revelation, and then work outward from there.

"You believe every prophetic reference to Israel in both Testaments is to be interpreted as the Church?"
I can't speak for John, but I too have often encountered this charge of being a replacement theologian, or of having spiritualized away the promises of God. My answer to your question is, "certainly not...but context is everything." There are many promises in the OT of God indicating a coming exile and a return from exile. These are not to be spiritualized to the church, but there were fulfilled historically - not in 1948. The Babylonians carried the Israelites into captivity beginning around 605 BC as God had promised, and eventually destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. And as Jeremiah had predicted, following 70 years of exile they were returned to the land by the Persians and able to rebuild to Jerusalem and the temple. These promises are not spiritualized away, but are recognized as being historically fulfilled. Some wrest these prophecies out of their context and teach to their congregants, "look, God said that He would return Israel to the land...and He did it in 1948." This is a disingenuous use of these scriptures. God fulfilled those particular prophecies in 538 BC, not 1948 AD.





April 15, 2011 12:41 PM
David said...

Regarding Romans 9-11, this is one of those places where presuppositions and hermenutical commitments shape interpretation. I would appeal to this text to prove my point, and a Dispensationalist would point to this same text to prove his. In my view Paul makes several things very clear in these chapters. First, his Jewish bretheren are not saved (contra Hagee) by their ethnicity. His heart aches for his kinsmen (see 10:1) because despite their glorious history, because by rejecting Christ they have been cut off from God (Rom 9:1-5). As John says, "No one who denies the Son has the Father" (1 John 2:23). He goes on to make an important distinction - not all those descended from Israel (ethnically) are Israel (spiritually). It is not the children of the flesh, but of the promise (faith) that are the true descendents of Israel and Abraham (Rom 9:6-8; see Gal 3:29). He talks about God's sovereign right to elect some and not others - God has saved a remnant of the faithful. In fact he answers the charge that God has rejected the Jews by pointing to his own salvation (11:1-2). In effect he says: Has God rejected his people - no, I am an Israelite who has been saved by his faith in Christ, so not all Israelites have been lost. There is a remnant saved by faith. And then finally the olive tree. Paul depicts a single olive tree in which the faithful Jews are natural branches, the unfaithful Jews are broken off due to their unbeleif, and the faithful Gentiles are grafted in. There is a promise that if the Jews come to faith they too will be grafted back in. Following this, it does mention that "all Israel will be saved," but there is dispute as to exactly what that means. One view recognizes that the greek word in v.26 is houtos, a logical connective meaning "in this way." Thus it could mean all Israel will be saved "in this way," pointing back to the argument he had just made. In otherwords, in what way will they be saved - as a remnant of those that God elects to be saved by faith. So the passage doesn't necessitate a universal future conversion. I haven't come to a strong conclusion as of yet, but even if I did view that as a promise for a mass conversion of Jews in the future prior to the return of Christ this does not require nor speak of any connection to the land. The land is not mentioned, only their unbeleif and the potential for them to be saved by their faith in Christ. The land is absent from this discussion.

"You believe every prophetic reference to Israel in both Testaments is to be interpreted as the Church?"
- This is moving into the realm of hyperbole and mud slinging. It is certainly and clearly not the case that every reference to "Israel" means the church.

"BUT, none of this applies to you, the Jewish people. Nothing i've prophesied to you applies to you, the Jewish nation. It only applies to the Gentile believers in me."
- You are viewing things in terms of ethnic distinctions, but this is a category I reject. You seem to be asking, "Is it for the Jews or for the Gentiles? Which one?" Neither is correct. The kingdom of God isn't built on ethnic distinctions but on the distinction of faith. It is not for all the Jews nor for all the Gentiles. Faithful Jews AND Gentiles will be on the side of blessing, and the unfaithful (both Jews AND Gentiles) will receive judgment.




April 15, 2011 12:43 PM
Protoprotestant said...

I just got home from work...it's supper time in Appalachia.

This is a good interaction that I hope some readers are finding to be informative. I have plenty to say, but I might not get to it until a little later tonight or tomorrow. I just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you.

This is a pretty important topic...all the more because it affects how we understand current events, Israel the United States, and what we expect for tomorrow.

Back soon....





April 15, 2011 5:24 PM
ianvincent said...

RE:

"- You are viewing things in terms of ethnic distinctions,

[No. You haven't understood a thing yet]

but this is a category I reject. You seem to be asking, "Is it for the Jews or for the Gentiles? Which one?" Neither is correct. The kingdom of God isn't built on ethnic distinctions but on the distinction of faith. It is not for all the Jews nor for all the Gentiles. Faithful Jews AND Gentiles will be on the side of blessing, and the unfaithful (both Jews AND Gentiles) will receive judgment. "
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You're not aware of it, but you're actually supporting my case, which is, that God indeed does have dealings today with the Jewish nation (as per prophecy) just as He deals with every nation and all people, for He is Sovereign over all nations and peoples.

Therefore, the notion, which John has put forth, that God has no dealings with the Jewish people today, except that in the end they get saved, is wrong.

He deals with them as a nation in order to bring them to salvation, as He does with all people He saves, with you and i.

April 15, 2011 7:50 PM
Protoprotestant said...

Regarding 2 Corinthians 1.20
No you don’t affirm that. You’re saying that somehow there are promises fulfilled outside of Jesus Christ. We’re in the New Covenant age, Jesus made that abundantly clear as he instituted the Lord’s Supper. Again, in the NT, the wall of division is broken down…the curtain in the temple was rent. You’re suggesting that we sew it up and that there is still a distinction between Jew and Gentile in direct contradiction to Ephesians 2 and Galatians 3.
Deals with the nation? Again there’s a remnant that joins The Church. The Church is the only holy nation in the New Covenant. All other nations including 1948 Israel are just common and have no claim to covenant blessings. You’re saying when they enter the NC, they will do it as a physical nation-state? Don’t you see the land, temple, priesthood, all of it was pointing to Jesus Christ? Why would we want to go back to shadow and type? That’s like saying the Messiah hasn’t come yet.
I never said every prophetic reference was about the Church per se. Every prophetic reference finds it ultimate expression in Christ and in the NC, Christ’s people, Christ’s Nation is the Church.
In Romans 9-11, he’s primarily but not exclusively talking about the Jews, but what does that have to do with the land? Spiritualizing? You mean like James’ treatment of Amos in Acts 15 or Peter’s treatment of Joel in Acts 2? No I’m sorry hermeneutics is very important, because Dispensationalism claims to be literal but isn’t and the key issue like I said is the fact that it reads the NT in light of the OT rather the OT in light of the NT.
As far Matthew 24, again hermeneutics comes into play. Prophetic lingo often employs concepts like prophetic perspective and idiom. This can be proved by how the NT deals with OT texts. Dispensationalism often rejects the interpretation the Apostles give and continues to insist certain passages have not been fulfilled.
In the last post you mention Jews and Gentiles in the Kingdom….where do you get the distinction from the NT? What do you do with the passages I’ve mentioned in Ephesians and Galatians? In light of Hebrews how could we go back to the OT? By suggesting the Jews are still God’s people…that’s exactly what you’re suggesting. Bring them to salvation? That’s tied to the land? If so, that’s pure OT.






April 15, 2011 8:09 PM
ianvincent said...

Also, David, i was happy to read what you said about context, relating to OT references to Israel.

As far as i'm aware, every OT reference to "Israel", and eschatological prophecy concerning "Israel", refers/applies to the Jewish people, and never to the Church.

Gentiles are surely referred to in OT prophecy, as coming and joining themselves with Israel (which was Paul's understanding, that the wild olive tree is grafted in to the true olive tree).

Then, in the NT, Paul introduces the concept of "the Israel of God", both Jew and Gentile as "one man" in Christ.

April 15, 2011 8:12 PM
ianvincent said...

When i said God "deals with a nation" i didn't say "blessings".

You are reading into what i said and going off on tangents.

God severely judged the Jewish nation, particularly with the Holocaust, but that was not a "covenant blessing". But blessing will be the ultimate outcome.

But, the simple fact was that is was a dealing, by God, with the Jewish nation.

John, i think you've evaded the simple issue i've raised, in answer to your initial proposition.

April 15, 2011 8:19 PM
Protoprotestant said...

Okay, the plan in Romans 9-11 is that the Jews enter the Church. I keep saying it. What else do you mean? Blessings? Yes, Jews will become Christians. You obviously mean something beyond that....

Perhaps if you explained what you mean or refer us to something. I'm not sure if you're advocating the mainstream Dispensational position or something else.

Of course you haven't dealt with any of the issues I've raised. Does God have two people in the New Covenant?





April 15, 2011 8:25 PM
ianvincent said...

Just the fact that the whole world will be against the Jewish people (it's nearly there) speaks of a covenant, the OT.

Otherwise, is this fact merely coincidence? Global antisemitism a mere coincidence, and of no relation to Bible prophecy?

The Bible silent on this, and why it is happening to the Jewish nation?

April 15, 2011 8:29 PM
ianvincent said...

RE:

"Does God have two people in the New Covenant? "
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No, of course not. I never suggested that was the case. That was never the issue, and you know that.


God bless you brother.

April 15, 2011 8:33 PM
Protoprotestant said...

David,

Great comments especially on Romans 9-11. I agree with you and that famously tough v. 26 is often misread to mean 'and then' as in this will all be done in the future.

The old King James says 'and so' or as you said, 'in this way'

He seems to either be referring to the remnant of Jews or he's hearkening back to the discussion in Romans 10, tying the whole thing together in a grand conclusion...All Israel, meaning the entirety of the New Covenant people. And then he launches into doxology. Then deep breath....and part 2/Chapters 12-16 and application.

Can't be dogmatic, but it's plausible. Or....he's wrapping up the 9-11 argument concering the Jews and concludes with doxology...the wonder and seeming irony of it all that the Chosen People didn't believe and missed what it was all about.

Ian- I could also point to Matthew 21.43. He tells the plainly the Kingdom is taken away from them.

It has nothing to with the Scrituralness of the argument, but are you aware of the history of Dispensationalism...if that's what you're advocating? Just curious. Again, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it is interesting that these ideas only popped up in the 19th century. Were you raised in this system as I was or did you come to it post-conversion? Like I said, I'm not sure that's exactly what you're setting forth........




April 15, 2011 8:39 PM
Protoprotestant said...

I don't see that antisemitism has anything to do with it.

European antisemitism is rooted in Constantinianism.

Muslim antisemitism is rooted in history but it's modern hyper-version is rooted in opposition to Zionism and its conquests.

Two people in the NC...that is the issue. That's what I'm saying though....I'm not sure you're actually advocating Dispensationalism. Could you maybe briefly lay out where you're coming from?
April 15, 2011 8:42 PM

Protoprotestant said...

Yes more explanation will help.

No there's no covenant with the Arabs.

So does God have a covenant with America, Australia, India?

I'm serious. I'm trying to give you a fair shake, but you're not making a whole lot of sense to me. You won't really explain what you mean by 'dealings' and you won't respond to the fact that I'm arguing the NT teaches that God is quite finished with the Jewish people as a Covenanted nation.

Somebody help me out here. Am I missing something? Are you understanding where Ian is coming from?

Your statements regarding 1948 and the modern Zionist state of Israel seem to imply a bit more than mere 'dealings'...but I'm not sure what you mean by that.
April 15, 2011 9:22 PM




ianvincent said...

RE:

"No there's no covenant with the Arabs."
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Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
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I didn't say God was IN covenant with Ishmael. Covenant means a promise.

So God never promised to make Ishmael a great nation? This never happened, and this promise has nothing to do with the rise of the Arab nation?

April 15, 2011 9:31 PM
ianvincent said...

Re: Zionism.

In the same way, or same light, you could view the Crucifixion as an "evil Jewish plot",

OR, you could look at it as the "eternal plan of God from before the foundation of the world" ??

Yes?

What you see as evil, is actually the Sovereign plan of God for the Jewish people.

That doesn't make the Jews innocent, any more than they were innocent of having Jesus put to death.

You simply can't see the Biblical prophetic perspective of these great events in the world's history.

Protoprotestant said...

As far as the Arabs...it's all part of God's plan. Okay, they were a great nation for a centuries...they aren't right now. They might be again...I fail to see what your point is.

As far as the Crucifixion......it's both. They with wicked hands crucified him...according to Scripture.

Judas wickedly betrayed him...according to Scripture/His plan from before the foundations of the world.

The Soviet Union, the Nazis, 9/11 were all part of God's plan too. That doesn't mean it was right.

We're still not addressing the issues. What do you believe is the Biblical Prophetic perspective?

Your understanding of that, which I'm still not clear on...is derived from your hermeneutics.

If your hermeneutics are wrong, then you may very well be understanding Zionist Israel, the Arab nations, anti-semitism, Russia and China in an incorrect light.

You see from my perspective I could say that you've missed the significant of the greatest prophetic events in history.





ianvincent said...

Re: "As far as the Crucifixion......it's both. They with wicked hands crucified him...according to Scripture."
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Isn't that exactly what i said??

Isn't that the whole point as regards God's dealings with the Jewish nation?

April 15, 2011 9:49 PM
ianvincent said...

The Crucifixion was both WICKED and RIGHT.

The state of Israel is also both WICKED (as fallen humans are all wicked) and RIGHT (as far as God's Sovereign prophetic plan goes).

ian wrote:

Another point regards God's current dealings with the Jewish nation:


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks for; but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


Rom 11:32 For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old covenant; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

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This all CURRENT, as regards the Jewish people.

Is this not God's dealings with them, as a nation, that He has blinded them?

That's all i'm saying, that it's ridiculous to say God currently has no dealings with the Jewish nation.

I've been away for the weekend. Had a great time in a remote jungle village preaching and teaching the Word.

Re:

"So he has blinded them. We agree. "

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Great, brother. You agree then that God's dealings with the Jewish people are unique. There is no other nation or ethnic group on the planet whom God has blinded. Only one nation He has blinded. And only one nation to whom God has promised heal their blindness and to bring them back into their land and there save them.

There is no such promise to any other ethnic group.

That's all.

They will be saved thru believing the Gospel, like everyone else.

Protoprotestant said...

"You agree that God's dealings with the Jewish people are unique......."

Not anymore.

"There is no other nation or ethnic group on the planet whom God has blinded. Only one nation he has blinded."

Don't know that, neither do you.

"And only one nation to whom God has promised...heal their blindness and to bring them back into their land and there save them."

No way. Prove it.

"They will be saved thru believing the Gospel like everyone else."

Amen, the Jewish remnant will....but that's NOT what you just said. You just said they're going to be brought back into the land which I read as brought back through and/or saved under the mechanisms of the Old Covenant...definitely NOT like everyone else.

Can't have it both ways.



April 17, 2011 9:14 PM
ianvincent said...

"There is no other nation or ethnic group on the planet whom God has blinded. Only one nation he has blinded."



RE: "Don't know that, neither do you."
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Yeah, it's probably one of those issues on which Scripture is silent.

Maybe we'll never know!

Crack me up.

April 17, 2011 9:23 PM
ianvincent said...

RE:
"Amen, the Jewish remnant will....but that's NOT what you just said. You just said they're going to be brought back into the land which I read as brought back through and/or saved under the mechanisms of the Old Covenant...definitely NOT like everyone else."

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I never said that. And the more you draw these silly conclusions the more your character and integrity comes under the spotlight.

The problem is that you are thinking with a bias against me, as someone you've labelled a "Dispensationalist", and when you read what i write you think "Dispensationalist".

April 17, 2011 9:32 PM
Protoprotestant said...

Okay.....I've been curteous and I've tried to be patient with you.

I've asked you repeatedly to lay out your case on even the most basic level.

I've asked you interact with NT texts that contradict what you're saying. If you disagree fine, but you refuse to address them

Now you say I'm drawing silly conclusions and you attack my character and integrity.

Ian, if anyone bothers to read this thread it's pretty clear that either

a. you're in way over your head and don't know how to answer

or

b. you're being deceitful and playing games.


But somehow out of all this my character is impugned? I sincerely ask anyone reading this to tell me if I've demonstrated a dubious character or lacked integrity.

Ian I think you need to go a rethink some things.

Either way, this is turning into a colossal waste of time. I am happy to discuss these things, but this isn't a discussion. You're treating it like a game...I have to guess from your clues or something.

If you can't answer then fine, but please quit making a fool of yourself and wasting my time.

I don't say that to mean....I mean it in all sincerity.



April 17, 2011 9:41 PM
ianvincent said...

Oh, i don't mock interpretation, i mock a man-made paradigm where you don't even have to be born-again and be regenerated in order to be an expert and speak authoritatively, and be respected within it.

So, if i simply believe in the correct interpretation of Scripture, using the natural, simple laws of logic given to every human being, but i don't subscribe to theological jargon, then you can't understand what i'm saying?

April 17, 2011 9:50 PM
Protoprotestant said...

Thank you Ian, you've answered all my questions. I understand you perfectly now.




April 17, 2011 9:52 PM
ianvincent said...

So, if one doesn't subscribe to theological jargon, then they can't understand the Scriptures?

Or, perhaps people like me do understand a little, but until we subscribe to and use the jargon, our understanding will be inferior to people like you?

Oh, i do understand the lingo. I've studied Theology enough to learn the code language shared among the initiated.

April 17, 2011 10:16 PM
ianvincent said...

John,

I think i've identified the specific point of disagreement:

I am saying that God brings the Jewish people back into their land, and protects them and causes them to be the most advanced nation in the world

(despite the incredible odds against the possibility of such a thing happening)

EVEN THOUGH they are yet outside the New Covenant.

So, the basis for God doing this is simply that He decreed He will do it, PRIOR to and leading to them receiving their sight at the coming of Messiah.

Presently, a remnant is saved. Ultimately, all Israel shall be saved.

Zec 10:9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries;

and they shall live with their children, and return again.

Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; until room shall not be found for them.

[Interesting]

Zec 10:11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall strike the waves in the sea, and all the depths of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart away.
Zec 10:12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, says the LORD.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel, says the LORD, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth are gathered together against it.
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[ The whole world becomes antisemitic. ]
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Zec 12:4 In that day, says the LORD, I will strike every horse with terror, and its rider with madness: and I will open my eyes upon the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their hearts, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in sheaves; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddo.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, says the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, You shall not live; for you speak lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.
Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he has prophesied; neither shall they wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an farmer; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds between your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is close to me, says the LORD of hosts: strike the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, says the LORD, two parts in it shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left in it.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, They are my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

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Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, and your spoil shall be divided in the midst of you.


Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
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[This did NOT happen in AD70. Then it was not ALL nations, AND, there was no remnant of Jews left still holding the city. The assumption is that the Jews have returned to the land of Israel, and THEN "all nations" rise against them THERE. They are no longer dispersed when this happens]
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Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

[Again, this did not happen in AD70]
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Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall split in two, toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, you shall flee, like as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with him.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and she shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate to the place of the first gate, and the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no longer utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall rot away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall rot away in their sockets, and their tongue shall rot away in their mouths.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great panic from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague on the horse, on the mule, on the camel, and on the donkey, and on all the beasts that shall be in these tents, so shall this plague be.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whosoever will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt goes not up, and comes not, they will have no rain; there shall be the plague, with which the LORD will smite the nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil in them: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
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Hosea 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return,

[AFTERWARD, meaning, in the last days]

and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

[In the last days. Not in Hosea's time.]

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Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he has torn, and he will heal us; he has smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Let us know, let us press on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

I am saying that God brings the Jewish people back into their land, and protects them and causes them to be the most advanced nation in the world

(despite the incredible odds against the possibility of such a thing happening)

EVEN THOUGH they are yet outside the New Covenant.

So, the basis for God doing this is simply that He decreed He will do it, PRIOR to and leading to them receiving their sight at the coming of Messiah.

Presently, a remnant is saved. Ultimately, all Israel shall be saved.

What are the alternatives?

The Jews returning to Israel and becoming the most advanced nation on earth, against impossible odds, was:

a) Merely coincidence and of zero prophetic relevance?

b) Satan’s master plan to use the Jews to take over the world? It was all satan’s work?

c) I don’t know?

d) I don’t care to know?

……………………………………………………………………………………..

The IRONY, for those who dismiss this issue, is that this issue will become the PENULTIMATE issue for mankind to come to terms with: Did, or did not God give the Land of Israel to the Jewish people as an inheritance forever? Do they, or do they not have a DIVINE RIGHT to the land? (The only ethnic group on the planet with a divine right to a region)

SO. ultimately, it’s nothing to do with the Jewish people, AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GOD and what He has decreed He will do : the veracity of His word.

It’s putting GOD IN THE DOCK, not the Jewish people.

Mankind putting God on trial and judging Him to be a fool.

That’s the real issue, and that’s why i / we are so passionate about it.

Any nation which supports the dividing of Jerusalem and making it the capital of a Palestinian state, will suffer severe consequences. I believe that God will make the judgments of such a scale, that it will be obvious to any intelligent person, and they will know there is a connection.

It is evil to support any claim for the Land of Israel, by anyone other than the Israelis, for it is to make God to be a liar and a fool.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after Lot was separated from him, Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever. Gen 13:14-15

Are not you our God, who did drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel, and gave it to the descendants of Abraham your friend forever? 2 Chron 20:7


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…. Has God said? ….

(Genesis 3:1)

Satan hasn’t changed his MO: Has God really said that He gave the Land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham forever?

Did God really say that?

Yes, He did say that.

The first issue man had to deal with was over what God had said.

History has come full circle, and it will be the last issue man has to deal with, over what God has said.


How can whole nations be judged over whether they support the Jewish claim to the land?

I will bless those who bless you, AND CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU.

Ian - Thank you so much for this much needed and extremely interesting topic. Your conversations with those other people are "enlightening" and stimulating.

IF we believe that Jesus Christ was (IS) the Promised One, the Anointed One, The One who Fulfilled The Promise(s), and IF we believe that He was (IS) "My First-born Son " "My Son in Whom I am well pleased" - then.... HE IS Israel, He was (IS) The Tree INTO whom we ALL must be grafted - only through BELIEF in Him.

By belief IN Jesus Christ we (true believers) become One with Him - If He IS that Israel, believers IN Him are Israel. There is no other Israel outside of Jesus Christ. And you seem hold to that, if I am reading and understanding your conversations above.

And IF those notions are correct (and I sincerely believe they are) there is no other conclusion to make concerning what Paul wrote when he stated that "in THIS WAY, all Israel will be saved". THIS WAY refers to The Teaching of Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ IS THE WAY. He is the fulfillment of The Way that Moses taught and talked about, He IS The WAY spoken of by Isaiah and other prophets. So, IN Jesus Christ (In THIS WAY) all Israel (those who are IN Israel (Jesus Christ) will be saved. No one who remains in unbelief will be saved. The Scriptures are clear about that.

Your friends' discussions about the current nation of Israel (the Jewish people who live there) seem to adhere to the popular (albeit incorrect) notion that God has TWO chosen peoples. Never was so, and never will be so. As you so clearly point out - their unbelief (and anyone in the world's unbelief) keeps them blinded and "cut off" from The Kingdom.

Until they hear THE WORD and come to belief in The Truth of God's Word IN Jesus Christ as Redeemer/Saviour/Messiah they are "cut off from" God and are NOT considered eligible for eternal life. Jesus Christ said "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life" - "No man cometh to the Father but by me". How much more clear can that be?

Thanks for listening to my two cents - I'm not a trained "theologian" just a truly born-again believer who does not understand how anyone can still think the current Jewish nation is still God's chosen people - they COULD be but they still refuse to recognize THE ONE who offers that position to them - to be Israel whom God recognizes as His Own. Their unbelief is all that holds them back. It held them back in the OT many times, and He sent prophets to them repeatedly to restore His Teaching - over and over again. and then, He sent John the Baptist to "prepare THE WAY" for Jesus Christ Who was (IS) The Way to The Kingdom of God.

The Jews did not believe then, they do not believe yet today. IF they come to BELIEF in The Truth they can and will be saved - God had said so. Until that time - those people (as well as every other human being who lives in a state of unbelief) are completely, totally and eternally "cut off" and will face God's Wrath at Judgment. He has said so. Their unbelief is their sin. He came to save "sinners". But He has offered THE WAY to solve that - Jesus Christ.

That's the short answer. [u]

Hi,

Thanks for your post.

Before i reply to your comments, would you be willing to read Romans chapter 9, 10 & 11? and in particular chapter 11.

Bcos the only reason there is any controversy on this subject is bcos people don't believe or don't understand what Paul wrote in those three chapters.

If you would do that i would be happy to reply to your comments.

Really, everything on this subject is covered in those three chapters.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Also, I am hearing that Jacob Israel will lose their identity until the end days....then they will realize who they are. Do you know anything about this, Ian?



Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

[[[Now...are these the same ones today that have a talmud saying we are goy, like cattle, and Jesus is in hell burning in his excrement?]]]

However, to my knowledge ... if I am reading correctly, only a small portion of the House of Judah will be there in the physical land, not the House of Israel. I am wondering if you are seeing this, too.

OnTheMountain said
I'm not a trained "theologian" just a truly born-again believer who does not understand how anyone can still think the current Jewish nation is still God's chosen people - they COULD be but they still refuse to recognize THE ONE who offers that position to them

You know....I am not a "theologian" either.
I am seeing that the churches today that support the land there, are just that,...the church in the Nar...what we are told to come out of.
Are we being blessed for supporting them....NO...we have completely gone downhill. The older presidents warned of us these people. Jesus warned us of these people. Our government has gone downhill. They have overridden,, overruled and have nullified our constituition and laws. They have taken prayers out of our schools, infiltrated our educational institutes. They have overtaken our courts and have turned everything upside down. They are rewriting our History books. The history I have learned is not there anymore...I am trying with all my might getting my daughter to understand this so she is not deceived!

So Ian....I am glad you brought all this up.
Have you read the interview between White and Harold Wallace Rosenthal. The book is called The Hidden Tyranny
It is quite an eye opener!

Yes, the Jews are evil bcos God has blinded them until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. So, they are just as evil as anyone else who is blind.

The NAR fawns over the Jews and Jewishness. Paul didn't do that. His desire was that they be saved, understanding that without Jesus they are just as lost as anyone else.

"Supporting the land" , what does that mean?

Does it mean this? : For all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your descendants forever. Gen 13:15

Re: the House of Israel and the House of Judah. You'll see that in Romans 9-11 Paul incorporates all the tribes of Israel under the generic term, Israel.

And also here, the tribe of Judah is included as belonging to the children of Israel:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

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Does anyone have a problem with Romans chapter 11? Any verse there you can't understand?