Assurance Could Mess You Up!

Many are sure of going to Heaven without proper cause. How do you have assurance beyond a pat on the back from your pastor? Watch it and see.

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Deleted.

well Fisherman I see you deleted your post.. good grief and I thought it was a good post too.
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Fred, I deleted my post yesterday, but this is still heavy on my heart. I don't even know WHY I care so much, but I do...

Now you know I think of you like a brother, and my heart will always be with you.

BUT

I am going to just say it STRAIGHT UP,

This is a TOTALLY UNBALANCED TEACHING and it is LEGALISTIC at its core.

And just because your QUIET ATTENPTS at this are subtle, I do ABSOLUTELY have CONTENTION with this MESSAGE/teaching/ doctrine

IF you want to SHARE about your CALLING, or even ENCOURAGE others in that calling I have NO PERSONAL PROBLEMS with that..

BUT that IS NOT what I perceive is happening here:

YOU are seeking to PREACH and SHARE another "GOSPEL"

PLAN and simple that is what I SEE and that is WHAT I keep hearing out of the MOUTH of you and this CLIFF.


"THE GOSPEL" is about a MAN and a MESSIAH, JESUS CHRIST, and HIS MISSION.

It was THROUGH HIS MIRACLOUS WORKS and HIS DESIRE to GIVE "ETERNAL SALVATION", TO PAY the PENALTY for MY SIN, THAT HE BLED and DIED for MY REDEMPTION.

But it was NOT about HIS WORKS: HIS works as a PROPHET, TEACHER, HEALER etc. were through DEVINE INTERVENTION and anything SHORT of that is JUST WORKS..


HONESTLY I think you have got THE WORKS confused with the TRUE MESSAGE of the GOSPEL.


I don't like doing this, and i expect I am going to get RAPPED on the HEAD again, but why this TEACHING is not be inspected I personally have NO IDEA.


CLIFF says others are contenious over this message, and he doesn't know WHY??

This CLIFF is leading you down a dangerous path my freind, and you have picked up "HIS/cliff's" mantle and run with it.

And I truly wish you would get away from him.

You speak of LEGALISM, and yet you don't even see that this is LEGALISM at the CORE of it's teaching.

Don't even bother telling me that YOU have NOT ALREADY determined that THOSE that DON"T:

A. SERVE OTHERS, give ALL their material goods away, and OPEN their homes to others, like some kind of Soroity house, in the capacity that you and CLIFF are teaching are in some kind of "FALSE ASSURANCE" of their salvation.

BECAUSE CLIFF so much as said so ON THIS VIDEO.

AND I have READ these teachings of yours and Watched these VIDEOS enough to know EXACTLY what you and Cliff are saying.

Though EVERY TIME I have confronted you on this with QUESTIONS. You absolutely REFUSE to give any kind of DIRECT answer.

I know their are OTHERS that see this too, and and for the LIFE of me I don't understand why NO ONE cares enough to confront this DOCTRINE?

Why this TEACHING continues on THIS BOARD, when someone has an OPPPORTUNITY toOFFER CORRECTION is BEYOND me, we sure don't seem to have a problem CUTTING the HEADS off of those OUTSIDE this forum where they can NOT HEAR our voices.

FRED, you and CLIFF are TEACHING:

A WORKS SALVATION plan that YOU two have INVENTED SEEKING to pierce the CONSCIENCE of the SAINTS, A "PATTENED SALVATION" PLAN.

WE are NOT JEHOVAH witness, following some" PATTERN of WORKS" to gain a access to the KINGDOM OF GOD.

I WILL FOLLOW CHRIST, where ever HE LEADS ME:

We are in a COVANANT RELATIONSHIP, where each ONE is to do HIS WILL, AS each is told INDIVIDUALLY through that INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP.

You and CLIFF are ABSOLUTLY WRONG.. and I mean that without any reservation.

You CAN NOT JUDGE another man's FAITHFULNESS or STANDING IN CHRIST, based on YOUR CALLING.

It is YOUR CALLING and I absolutely disagree that it is a "FOUNDATION" in which we ALL should plant our feet " for OUR RIGHTEOUS STANDING before GOD"

I am not “contending” that your CALL is wrong.

IN FACT, I say AMEN. Be faithful to it.

BUT It is not WHAT you do that has VALUE in the KINGDOM OF GOD, but WHO and WHY you are doing it. MOVING as the HOLY SPIRIT moves US.

For it is THROUGH WHOM YOU are doing it FOR, that MANIFEST the TRANSFORMING POWER of GOD IN IT.

NOW that is where I stand on this TEACHING and Doctrine, and I personally will HAVE NOTHING more to do with it, or say anymore about it.`

BEFORE anyone allows themself to subcomb to this teaching I DO HOPE you will take a HEAVY DOSE of PRAYER before you RECEIVE IT.

OK off my ranting now, but that is MY 3 and 1/2 cents of sharing.

blessings donna

For those that did not watch the video here are CLIFF'S words that I recorded yesterday:

Quote:

THIS statement is true:<< my words

This is HOW we KNOW, there is ASSURANCE, because our ACTIONS reflect LOVE generated from this Faith and HOLY SPIRIT that resides in you.

Then he begins to DEFINE what that ASSURANCE IS: <<<MY WORDS

I quote:

IF you continue to walk in excuse making, walking by the problems, blinding yourself to the issues of the people around you, UNWILLING to take care of those NEEDS. THEN YOU ARE NOT AFFORDED THIS ASSURANCE.

IF you are not working with the POOR and reaching out to help them, IF you see problems in your church and you are NOT taking care of them, you are NOT GIVEN THIS ASSURANCE

.

IF you have ASSURANCE anyway, you are walking in FALSE ASSURANCE. Climbing a rock without a ROPE

.

Because these things I have stated are TRUE only for those that are walking in the GRACE and FAITH…

Who has FAITH, those that are obedient, to activate.. CARE FOR PEOPLE in NEED.

If you are not doing that YOU are not WALKING IN GRACE. You don’t have FAITH.. and you have NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION.

If you don’t MEET those criteria and saying say “YEAH but I am a CHRISTIAN” You are WALKING IN FALSE ASSURANCE…. …..

LAST and FINAL comment:

TO WHICH I SAY...... REALLY????

brother good intentions don't alway make "GOOD DOCTRINE"

There are MANY GIFTS and CALLIGS, none of which are “SELF-INTEREST” but are “ALL” for the “COMMON GOOD OF THE BODY” and ALWAYS have ETERNAL INTEREST.

1 cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 cor 12: 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same SpiritAnd Just like FISHERMAN said once..

“The PRAYING LITTLE OLD LADY has as much VALUE to the LORD, and HIS KINGDOM as ANY OTHER GIFT there is.”

<rant>

***uhgg***

Why delete posts? I don't understand...

If a post was written hastily or with a poor spirit, what a better way than to properly explain or repent of it? How can there be proper growth or correction if things get swept under the rug?


</rant>

I deleted my post because after prayerful consideration I felt it would not serve in the best interests of this forum nor would it be properly reflective of the love and concern I have in me through Jesus Christ.

If you prefer Roy, in the future I'll refrain from deleting anymore of my posts. But in this instance I felt what was NOT said by me, would be better than what was said.

And - - for the record - - I completely and totally agree with what Donna submitted here.

Great response dear sister!!!

Good words Donna.

while listening the video , this thought came quietly on my heart : " i do what i see the Father does".
that is from the words of Jesus in John 5:19 :
"I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

and

For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does (John 5:20)

The Son of course , knew the Father , and of course knew that the Father loved him

Likewise we know that the Father loves us , and knows us, individually.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2)

we know that the Father loves us , and has even prepared for us all , good works , that we may walk in them. What a joy !

That is what is the core of our assurance.

We have believed God's testimony about the Son ,
we have received the Holy Spirit
we receive the Word , we don't harden our heart
we can know that God hear our prayers ,
etc....
Moreover, we can know that even our conscence do not give us a bad testimony

is it to man to decide what service to give God and fellow men ?
but if hearts are truly His and available , that is a different story.

Where does assurance and testimony comes from , from God or from men ?

because we have assurance that the Everlasting Covenant is sure and solid , that the Lord is faithful and true , we make our election sure by walking in our heavenly calling , adding to our faith the christian virtues , and by this dynamic it is impossible that it does not give birth to godly services too, small or great , here or there , specialized or not .

Frankly , does a real christian looks at his own services , fearing to loose what he has or has not ,
or does he look at the Lord who has overcome everything and gives the increase , adding to those who have ?

I really love what Oswald Chambers wrote in "Disciple indeed" : "the claim of the Gospel is to create in those who are Christ's the same inward disposition & motives , that were in Christ-Jesus" ( maybe not the exact same words, but that's the meaning).

It is certainly true .
That does not mean that all will do the same services,
even less that they have to serve so to have assurance themselves are saved. This would be like putting the cart before the oxen.

Have been thinking about how it is that such things spread and that is because of not knowing Gods perfect will. Two days ago God showed me about the talents that the men recieved...it is written that they recieved acording to their ABILLITY...and then the form of tallents is not even mentioned in those verses but they are in romans:

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. [/b[b]]
Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Fred I do want to encourage you to NOT walk away from this forum.

I know these comments may have seemed HARSH.

But they are NOT meant that way. They have been out of PURE LOVE and for your GOOD, and the COMMON GOOD of the BODY.

so PLEASE just take some time to prayerfully consider it.... PLEASE.

I don't believe a ONE Of us is knocking you for WHAT you are doing in your LIFE, IF that is WHAT the LORD has called you to, then be FAITHFUL TOO it and SHARE about it, you may even be sent to encourage others to share in that invitation.


LOVE ya always in CHRIST.

donna

Wow I must be a bipolar heretic? First I had a Love Gospel (all dogs go to heaven) and now I am a legalist (working my way to heaven). How can I have two opposing views at the same time?

I confess I am a legalist in this one way… Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our neighbor as our selves, this is a law and not a suggestion. Of course only those with true faith will be able to carry out this command. The problem is, WE do not know who has true faith, and who does not! God has not let US read the Lambs Book of Life! So we are left with Love being the measuring rod of true faith. We should, each one of us, look into the perfect mirror and see how our life is measuring up to the descriptions in the bible. If you do not like what you see, change, it's that simple.


Which part of the Gospel of the Apostle John do you disagree with?


1Jn 3:16-24 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (17) If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? (18) Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. (19) This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence (20) whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. (21) Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God (22) and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. (23) And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. (24) Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


1. The Apostle John describes love as sacrificial living for others.
2. That the love of God does not exist in those that will not to use their material possessions for others.
3. That actions (deeds) in truth is the proper love.
4. This is how we know we belong to him, by obeying Christ's commands to love one another.

Does Oswald Chambers have a bad Gospel?

Daily Reflections with Oswald Chambers [February 25, 2011]
My Utmost for His Highest (The Golden Book of Oswald Chambers;1992) ^ | 1935/1992 | Oswald Chambers

The Destitution of Service
". . . though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved"
—2 Corinthians 12:15

Natural human love expects something in return. But Paul is saying, “It doesn’t really matter to me whether you love me or not. I am willing to be completely destitute anyway; willing to be poverty-stricken, not just for your sakes, but also that I may be able to get you to God.” “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor . . .” (2 Corinthians 8:9). And Paul’s idea of service was the same as our Lord’s. He did not care how high the cost was to himself— he would gladly pay it. It was a joyful thing to Paul.
The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea. His idea is that we serve Him by being the servants of others. Jesus Christ actually “out-socialized” the socialists. He said that in His kingdom the greatest one would be the servant of all (see Matthew 23:11). The real test of a saint is not one’s willingness to preach the gospel, but one’s willingness to do something like washing the disciples’ feet— that is, being willing to do those things that seem unimportant in human estimation but count as everything to God. It was Paul’s delight to spend his life for God’s interests in other people, and he did not care what it cost. But before we will serve, we stop to ponder our personal and financial concerns— “What if God wants me to go over there? And what about my salary? What is the climate like there? Who will take care of me? A person must consider all these things.” All that is an indication that we have reservations about serving God. But the apostle Paul had no conditions or reservations. Paul focused his life on Jesus Christ’s idea of a New Testament saint; that is, not one who merely proclaims the gospel, but one who becomes broken bread and poured-out wine in the hands of Jesus Christ for the sake of others.

alf wrote:
Which part of the Gospel of the Apostle John do you disagree with?

What make you think someone disagrees with John ?

Personally , I love what John wrote

But John did not preached : you need to , you need to , you must , you must ...
assuming that those who listen (will listen) him are unwilling to serve and walk like Jesus walked.

alf wrote:Does Oswald Chambers have a bad Gospel?

Daily Reflections with Oswald Chambers [February 25, 2011]
My Utmost for His Highest (The Golden Book of Oswald Chambers;1992) ^ | 1935/1992 | Oswald Chambers

The Destitution of Service
". . . though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved"
—2 Corinthians 12:15

Natural human love expects something in return. But Paul is saying, “It doesn’t really matter to me whether you love me or not. I am willing to be completely destitute anyway; willing to be poverty-stricken, not just for your sakes, but also that I may be able to get you to God.” “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor . . .” (2 Corinthians 8:9). And Paul’s idea of service was the same as our Lord’s. He did not care how high the cost was to himself— he would gladly pay it. It was a joyful thing to Paul.
The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea. His idea is that we serve Him by being the servants of others. Jesus Christ actually “out-socialized” the socialists. He said that in His kingdom the greatest one would be the servant of all (see Matthew 23:11). The real test of a saint is not one’s willingness to preach the gospel, but one’s willingness to do something like washing the disciples’ feet— that is, being willing to do those things that seem unimportant in human estimation but count as everything to God. It was Paul’s delight to spend his life for God’s interests in other people, and he did not care what it cost. But before we will serve, we stop to ponder our personal and financial concerns— “What if God wants me to go over there? And what about my salary? What is the climate like there? Who will take care of me? A person must consider all these things.” All that is an indication that we have reservations about serving God. But the apostle Paul had no conditions or reservations. Paul focused his life on Jesus Christ’s idea of a New Testament saint; that is, not one who merely proclaims the gospel, but one who becomes broken bread and poured-out wine in the hands of Jesus Christ for the sake of others.

No Oswald Chambers has not a bad Gospel.

Years ago, Father moved me in a region where i did not wanna go, a region where i knew no one,
At that time , I did not understood that i had to die , even to my own preconceptions of serving (the will of my flesh can not serve God and fellowmen in their best interests and approval of the Spirit of the Lord), and trust on Him alone.
Incidently and since, i just can't hear a message where i am told to do this and that.

Blessings to you Alf.

Fred sorry but I can't spend much time on this today. I will try to get back to it later, if you need me to.

But here is my basic problem with this UNBALANCED TEACHING:

1. You assume there is ONLY one type of "sacrificial love".

When in fact, ALL giftings and calling are about "Sacrificial giving and love."

2. That the love of God does not exist in those that will not to use their material possessions for others

First I am going to say again. NO ONE is opposed to ‘giving”.

HOWEVER:

1 cor 13: 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing

Love for your neighbor is NOT measured by giving all your material goods away.

It is far deeper and richer and far more BALANCED than that.

And ABSOLUTELY THE “ASSURANCE of my SALVATION” is not measured by your gifts or calling OR me giving all my goods away.

quote:

4. This is how we know we belong to him, by obeying Christ's commands to love one another

.

OBEYING CHRIST is the KEY PHRASE in that VERSE.


Not a “FORMULA or STANDARDED created by MAN for that Assurance.

You have assumed that LOVING CHRIST is revealed by ONLY ONE MEASURE, GIVING SACRIFICALLY MATERIALLY to others in need.

Sorry brother that is NOT being OBEDIENT to CHRIST but creating a formula for salvation.

AGAIN: My salvation is based on a COVENANTAL RELATIONSHIP with CHRIST, HE ask and I submit to what HE ask of me.


The confusion between the LOVE GOSPEL and LEGALISM:

So you can’t make the connection between how this is BOTH the LOVE GOSPEL and LEGALISTIC?

I have already explained the “LOVE GOSPEL”, but here you go again.


The LOVE GOSPEL:

HERE IS WHAT THE "LOVE GOSPEL" SAYS to me:



BE Tolerate at all cost, OVERLOOK all sin, don’t cause contention, don't expect REMORSE, GIVE all your GOODS Away, and pour over the LOST with the BLESSINGS OF GOD, to the point of TOTAL SELF-SACRIFICE and you have FOLLOWED the COMMAND of LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, and have satisfied GOD'S WILL.

Where is a JUST GOD presented in that?

So how is THIS TEACHING LEAGALISTIC:


It is LEGALISTIC, because any time you profess there is a SPECIFIC DUTY or SERVICE one must perform to have “Assurance of their SALVATION”, in this case.. YOUR UNDERSTANDING and EXPECTATIONS of Loving or neighbor.

THEN you have CREATED a NEW PATHWAY for SALVATION. That makes it LEGALISTIC at its core.



FOR all workings, duties, callings, giftings, are APPOINTED by the ADMINISTRATOR JESUS CHRIST, and they are DIVERS in NATURE.

1 Cor 12: 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1 Cor 12: 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Well I hope that helps, if not I will seek to get back to this later. Right now I have picked up a bit of a cold virus and my head just isn’t clear enough for a conversation.

Blessings to you Fred.. donna