God's Eternal Purpose: Hint, Ephesians and Colossians

I added the hint to the title. God's eternal purpose is to have a bride for His Son. God wanted a dwelling place...you have to listen to the message.

http://ptmin.podbean.com/2010/08/04/the-eternal-purpose/

But I also have another reason, your opinion. I go to discernment websites and a FEW speak against Frank Viola, the guy teaching. But I don't see anything wrong with what he is teaching. And the organic (house church) he helped start in Gainesville has good fruit. By good fruit I know several people in their 20's who became Christians through within that ministry and they have grown, and their hearts are established by grace. I see spiritual growth. *I see better fruit than in Crossroads (discipleship/evangelism) oriented church, MUCH better than the usual Charismatic churches I've been with, and even Calvary Chapel. **For those of us who were already in Christ we are healing...to put it that way...from all the Est. Churches we've been with from IHOP to AOG and others I can't even think of. Some were with Emergent churches and the dross is burning from that. ***I could say more but I want your input.

Hi Clark...just found the following article on Frank Viola -

http://apprising.org/2010/06/06/frank-viola-practices-corrupt-contemplativecentering-prayer/

By contemplative-centering prayer I have heard this and wondered if that's what it is: not saying anything, listening with your spirit, only saying Jesus to center your mind back on silent praying (I'm saying silent praying), and doing this at first up to 5 minutes and eventually 15 minutes.

For me I have only done something like this before I knew of FV or anyone mentioned in the article. That is I would pray regularly, with words, but then I can't pray anymore, just sit and think or listen. God correcting me, or thinking of certain scriptures, but even then that was rare.

But then, while "silent praying" I would pray regularly, in words, silent and in words. We all know there are different ways to pray...praise and thanks, seeking direction, forgiveness, correction (silence has to do with that) BUT AFTER THAT CORRECTION you still pray or I still pray...for what, in the way God corrected me. This sounds silly or redundant to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean.

What I just wrote is not the same thing as contemplative-centering prayer. NEVER do I try to empty my mind out. You ALWAYS be discerning for the masquerador to act AS an angel of light.

Since I live 30 miles away from everyone I am not as involved and never prayed silently with them. But there are a few who do. I noticed many don't. I'm speaking about the organ,ic church in GVL, FL.

I work in Lake City so that drives me even further away and always sensed God is pushing me away.
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But at the GVL church there is no authoritarian leadership, we pair up in 2's to study a certain topic like priesthood of all believers, then share with the rest of the body during out meetings. Everyone participates. I stopped pairing up since I'm rarely in GVL. I'm just giving insight how the meetings are done.

The singing is mostly acapella and music is slowly added, reason: when music does not replace or not more important that the greatest instrument, our voice, then instruments will be added. Mostly guitar since it doesn't slow us down or drown us out. I liked this since I missed ENTHUSIASTIC acapella singing. I've been in churches where you could not even hear your voice and most people aren't really singing anyway...they're just going through the motions, slightly hand clapping, and watching the people on stage "lead" in praise and worship...so called. That's in the brick and mortar churches...to put it that way.

The good I see is a close knit Christian community where there's a strong sense of brotherhood. But not like Crossroads, they're more accepting of other believers from other churches. Crossroads wasn't. It's not like the ICOC.
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And so what concerns me is possibly error later on. You don't see the error right away. Crossroads for example had a good start (before Kip McKean and company corrupted it, but Chuck Lucas helped it). Good concept but it went bad in Gainesville before Boston COC even got started muchless the usual ICOC in the early 90's.

What I mean is each generation the error (I know that sounds legalistic but I have to explain this) gets worse. Look at it this way...using the Churches of Christ as an example: COC>then Crossroads Movement>then ICOC. To put it another way the Churches of Christ produced a cultic group worse than themselves and that being the International COC.

What does this have to do with organic-church that FV teaches. Nothing. Except to say in years coming it could grow into something worse if not dealt with. I'm APPREHENSIVE to think that maybe this is what God wants me to do, warn and confront? seeds of bad doctrine, doctrines of demons, that are infiltrating the organic/house churches.

But FV refers to himself as post-Charismatic. He has spoken about the weird manifestations going on today. He spoke about the spiritual abuse and same things we have talked about. So the worse thing for him is the idea of "Christian mysticism and contemplative-centering prayer." What to do.

I hope this post wasn't too long and confusing.

Clark wrote:I added the hint to the title. God's eternal purpose is to have a bride for His Son. God wanted a dwelling place...you have to listen to the message.

http://ptmin.podbean.com/2010/08/04/the-eternal-purpose/

But I also have another reason, your opinion. I go to discernment websites and a FEW speak against Frank Viola, the guy teaching. But I don't see anything wrong with what he is teaching. And the organic (house church) he helped start in Gainesville has good fruit. By good fruit I know several people in their 20's who became Christians through within that ministry and they have grown, and their hearts are established by grace. I see spiritual growth. *I see better fruit than in Crossroads (discipleship/evangelism) oriented church, MUCH better than the usual Charismatic churches I've been with, and even Calvary Chapel. **For those of us who were already in Christ we are healing...to put it that way...from all the Est. Churches we've been with from IHOP to AOG and others I can't even think of. Some were with Emergent churches and the dross is burning from that. ***I could say more but I want your input.

I've read a few of his books. Interesting concept, and there are some good observations and ideas in there that would enhance the Church. But, he misrepresents the historical Church and the way it was ran. By misrepresent, I mean speaking from the facts, it's a fictitious representation. If it were deliberate it would be a bold lie.

That doesn't mean there aren't pearls in his writings, but there aren't nearly as many as folks think.

Check his claim of how the Church was ran in households only, like small groups.

Well we know those "households" had elders in each. There was a "Bishop" type person over the area's Church, which could have been in houses. See TIMOTHY, and TITUS for examples. Also read 1 Clement for the historical view. It was written around the time the Epistles of John were written, so within the lifetime of the APostles, you can see how one of the "Bishop's" or area leaders was taught by the Apostles how the Church was to be ran.

In the Way, Church name found in Acts, we know from other sources, that they would wait 2+ years to become part of the Church, waiting for their lives to reflect their faith claims.

Viola paints a picture very self serving from his own personal bias.

The Barna Group, which publishes his work, has a great read out called unChristian that is worthy of study as well.

Hope it helps.

IXOYE wrote:...
In the Way, Church name found in Acts, we know from other sources, that they would wait 2+ years to become part of the Church, waiting for their lives to reflect their faith claims...

Fine, I can buy that... But what about that dude in Corinth...

yeah the guy in Corinth would not stand a chance.

I like it that FV has made the case to meet in homes. Yet he could still have said the early Christians didn't meet ONLY in homes. Solomon's Colonnade is a good example...but I have to look into that more. Either way he has the body of Christ talking about this and challenging to TRADITIONS of our day.

PapaDuke wrote:

IXOYE wrote:...
In the Way, Church name found in Acts, we know from other sources, that they would wait 2+ years to become part of the Church, waiting for their lives to reflect their faith claims...

Fine, I can buy that... But what about that dude in Corinth...

Which dude in Corinth? Lost me, and I'm sure it's obvious...

But, on this topic, you did have... errr... uhhh... was it Iraneus.. who was being hauled to Rome for execution that wrote all the letters to the Churches complaining about a man that waffled and said he was against a quick conversation. That was 100 years after the times in Acts... so apparently we have about as much historical time frame for the takes a long time for conversion thing as the U.S. has been the U.S.A.

Clark wrote:yeah the guy in Corinth would not stand a chance.

I like it that FV has made the case to meet in homes. Yet he could still have said the early Christians didn't meet ONLY in homes. Solomon's Colonnade is a good example...but I have to look into that more. Either way he has the body of Christ talking about this and challenging to TRADITIONS of our day.

Well, biblically we see they started off in the Synogogues. The homes came after persecution. The homes were still monitored and under supervision. Viola's concepts seem to be anyone can teach from a home, God will guide them. Which, ignores that some have gifts other's don't. That God prepared us for Church leadership and directives from Melchizedek's time forward/ OT being foreshadowing of the new and all that.

But, VIola has some good points too.

You make a good case for how the early church was set up, with leaders to keep it from getting flaky. Today there is no authority in the Protestant circles. Anyone with a thought, and a shingle can start a church and teach anything.

I don't think the apostles intended it that way. By all the letters they left, it surely seems they didn't. Viola strikes me as a man angry at the Church, not a true seeker of history and God's intent. And I'm sure there is some bias behind that, but I don't know what it is yet.

Clark wrote:By contemplative-centering prayer I have heard this and wondered if that's what it is: not saying anything, listening with your spirit, only saying Jesus to center your mind back on silent praying (I'm saying silent praying), and doing this at first up to 5 minutes and eventually 15 minutes.

For me I have only done something like this before I knew of FV or anyone mentioned in the article. That is I would pray regularly, with words, but then I can't pray anymore, just sit and think or listen. God correcting me, or thinking of certain scriptures, but even then that was rare.

But then, while "silent praying" I would pray regularly, in words, silent and in words. We all know there are different ways to pray...praise and thanks, seeking direction, forgiveness, correction (silence has to do with that) BUT AFTER THAT CORRECTION you still pray or I still pray...for what, in the way God corrected me. This sounds silly or redundant to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean.

What I just wrote is not the same thing as contemplative-centering prayer. NEVER do I try to empty my mind out. You ALWAYS be discerning for the masquerador to act AS an angel of light.

Since I live 30 miles away from everyone I am not as involved and never prayed silently with them. But there are a few who do. I noticed many don't. I'm speaking about the organ,ic church in GVL, FL.

I work in Lake City so that drives me even further away and always sensed God is pushing me away.
*************************************************************
But at the GVL church there is no authoritarian leadership, we pair up in 2's to study a certain topic like priesthood of all believers, then share with the rest of the body during out meetings. Everyone participates. I stopped pairing up since I'm rarely in GVL. I'm just giving insight how the meetings are done.

The singing is mostly acapella and music is slowly added, reason: when music does not replace or not more important that the greatest instrument, our voice, then instruments will be added. Mostly guitar since it doesn't slow us down or drown us out. I liked this since I missed ENTHUSIASTIC acapella singing. I've been in churches where you could not even hear your voice and most people aren't really singing anyway...they're just going through the motions, slightly hand clapping, and watching the people on stage "lead" in praise and worship...so called. That's in the brick and mortar churches...to put it that way.

The good I see is a close knit Christian community where there's a strong sense of brotherhood. But not like Crossroads, they're more accepting of other believers from other churches. Crossroads wasn't. It's not like the ICOC.
************************************************************

And so what concerns me is possibly error later on. You don't see the error right away. Crossroads for example had a good start (before Kip McKean and company corrupted it, but Chuck Lucas helped it). Good concept but it went bad in Gainesville before Boston COC even got started muchless the usual ICOC in the early 90's.

What I mean is each generation the error (I know that sounds legalistic but I have to explain this) gets worse. Look at it this way...using the Churches of Christ as an example: COC>then Crossroads Movement>then ICOC. To put it another way the Churches of Christ produced a cultic group worse than themselves and that being the International COC.

What does this have to do with organic-church that FV teaches. Nothing. Except to say in years coming it could grow into something worse if not dealt with. I'm APPREHENSIVE to think that maybe this is what God wants me to do, warn and confront? seeds of bad doctrine, doctrines of demons, that are infiltrating the organic/house churches.

But FV refers to himself as post-Charismatic. He has spoken about the weird manifestations going on today. He spoke about the spiritual abuse and same things we have talked about. So the worse thing for him is the idea of "Christian mysticism and contemplative-centering prayer." What to do.

I hope this post wasn't too long and confusing.

The guy in Corinth was living with his father's wife...kinda sick. So Paul laid out the case for him to be disfellowshipped.

I Cor. 5: 1 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even condoned among the Gentiles—a man is living with his father's wife. 2 And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about him who has done this thing as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, along with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

But he repented....

II Cor. 2:5 If anyone has caused pain, he has not caused pain to me, but in some degree—not to exaggerate—to all of you. 6 The punishment by the majority is sufficient for such a person, 7 so now you should forgive and comfort him instead; otherwise, this one may be overwhelmed by excessive grief. 8 Therefore I urge you to confirm your love to him. 9 It was for this purpose I wrote: so I may know your proven character, if you are obedient in everything. 10 Now to whom you forgive anything, I do too. For what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for you in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we may not be taken advantage of by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his intentions.

I'm don't know if he is or not (angry). I met him once and that was it. Today there's a variety of guys who wrote books on meeting in homes. The only thing new about it is that it's no longer a fringe group. Obviously not all are with FV, I doubt anyone knows all the various network of home churches.

What I see in GVL is a healthy body of believers. I just hope it stays that way. Today's modern church has some bad seed (to put it that way) that can creep in unnoticed. Emergent church and National Apostolic Reformation NAR are two things to avoid, for lack of a better way to put it. So I just hope more Christians are aware of this and not fall into it---esp. among brothers and sisters I know personally.

Clark wrote:IXOYE wrote:
...
In the Way, Church name found in Acts, we know from other sources, that they would wait 2+ years to become part of the Church, waiting for their lives to reflect their faith claims...



Fine, I can buy that... But what about that dude in Corinth...

I don't see what he has to do with waiting 2+ years to get in the Church. Apparently he was already IN the Church, just, errr, malfunctioned, (?). And they reconciled with him as the Church should. I'm guessing I'm still missing something. I think I turned left where you turned right.

Clark wrote:The guy in Corinth was living with his father's wife...kinda sick. So Paul laid out the case for him to be disfellowshipped.

I Cor. 5: 1 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even condoned among the Gentiles—a man is living with his father's wife. 2 And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about him who has done this thing as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, along with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

But he repented....

II Cor. 2:5 If anyone has caused pain, he has not caused pain to me, but in some degree—not to exaggerate—to all of you. 6 The punishment by the majority is sufficient for such a person, 7 so now you should forgive and comfort him instead; otherwise, this one may be overwhelmed by excessive grief. 8 Therefore I urge you to confirm your love to him. 9 It was for this purpose I wrote: so I may know your proven character, if you are obedient in everything. 10 Now to whom you forgive anything, I do too. For what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for you in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we may not be taken advantage of by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his intentions.

Clark wrote:I'm don't know if he is or not (angry). I met him once and that was it. Today there's a variety of guys who wrote books on meeting in homes. The only thing new about it is that it's no longer a fringe group. Obviously not all are with FV, I doubt anyone knows all the various network of home churches.

I can't speak for his actually demeanor, but my hunch or inclination from seeing his books, I own 2 or 3, read them too, is he's angry. At the point his arguments leave reality and become stretched thin to the point of nearly blatant fabrication, just to prove his point, he's lost that purity of opinion that lets me give him the benefit of the doubt.

He still has some good observations though.

Clark wrote:What I see in GVL is a healthy body of believers. I just hope it stays that way. Today's modern church has some bad seed (to put it that way) that can creep in unnoticed. Emergent church and National Apostolic Reformation NAR are two things to avoid, for lack of a better way to put it. So I just hope more Christians are aware of this and not fall into it---esp. among brothers and sisters I know personally.

My worry is, with any group, is who has authority over them to keep them on the right path. That's how the early church was established and coached.

Acts 2:41-47

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved

Acts 4:4

But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

Brad, it's hard to take you serious when I see no 2 year waiting period anywhere in Acts. In fact, they were added to the Church immediately after belief. At least that how I see it here in scripture.

Acts 15:23-29

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell


Note no 2 year waiting period in the Apostle's letter.

PapaDuke wrote: Acts 2:41-47

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved

Acts 4:4

But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

No disagreement with any of this. That Spirit of God was hyperactive getting the Church started, wasn't He? I mean literally all over the place. However, the Church wasn't established yet, it was being established. We can agree on that, can't we?

PapaDuke wrote: Brad, it's hard to take you serious when I see no 2 year waiting period anywhere in Acts. In fact, they were added to the Church immediately after belief. At least that how I see it here in scripture.

That would be because ACTS doesn't contain all of Church History. Sort of like saying You can't fly to Europe because the Bible doesn't mention airplanes... (ok, hyperbolic bad example but grin and imagine...) If this piece of History has that much interest for you, I'll start the digging to find places where it'll talk about it.

PapaDuke wrote: Acts 15:23-29

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell


Note no 2 year waiting period in the Apostle's letter.

The topic isn't addressed in that letter. :| Some books leave whole topics out, don't mention GOD, etc... absence doesn't prove anything.

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/Membership.early.church.htm

Here, I got lucky. This guy isn't teaching anything that isn't taught in just about any History class in any seminary.